Comments on: A Baby So Ugly, Even A Mother Couldn’t Love It: Web Standards. AKA: Just Keep Swimming http://visualrinse.com/2009/07/07/a-baby-so-ugly-even-a-mother-couldnt-love-it-web-standards/ Design, Development, Technology and My Life. Tue, 27 Dec 2011 16:30:45 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.2 By: Chad http://visualrinse.com/2009/07/07/a-baby-so-ugly-even-a-mother-couldnt-love-it-web-standards/comment-page-1/#comment-109509 Chad Thu, 09 Jul 2009 21:12:12 +0000 http://visualrinse.com/?p=680#comment-109509 Thanks again, Ian. I guess I'd just like the ability to drop Flash for a lot of these simple video playback use cases, right now it's about the only game in town for dependable video delivery. Thanks again, Ian. I guess I’d just like the ability to drop Flash for a lot of these simple video playback use cases, right now it’s about the only game in town for dependable video delivery.

]]> By: Ian Hickson http://visualrinse.com/2009/07/07/a-baby-so-ugly-even-a-mother-couldnt-love-it-web-standards/comment-page-1/#comment-109508 Ian Hickson Thu, 09 Jul 2009 21:02:16 +0000 http://visualrinse.com/?p=680#comment-109508 For HTML5 I work with all the browser vendors (though Microsoft aren’t as forthcoming as the others) ‚Äî in fact, the video brouhaha was one of the few cases where that broke down, because we haven’t been able to find something that all the players can agree to. That it’s been the only example of this in the whole of HTML5′s development speaks to how much the browser vendors are cooperating, I think.

I completely agree that without the browsers agreeing to them, the specs are meaningless.

I dunno about CSS and ECMAScript, I haven’t been as involved with them in recent years. Different groups have different approaches, though. The whole standards world isn’t of one mind, not by a long shot. :-)

]]> By: Chad http://visualrinse.com/2009/07/07/a-baby-so-ugly-even-a-mother-couldnt-love-it-web-standards/comment-page-1/#comment-109503 Chad Thu, 09 Jul 2009 20:10:48 +0000 http://visualrinse.com/?p=680#comment-109503 Ian, Thanks for dropping by and commenting. The HTML5 spec's lack of coherency towards video codecs, ECMA's recent debacle regarding typing of variables, etc, the slowness of of adoption of CSS3 also cast a big shadow on standards IMHO. I think a major effort akin to Wasp, Dreamweaver task force etc is in order. Some recent conversations between IE's PM (http://adrianba.net/) and various users shed some light on that... The big boys just don't want to play ball. I realize that the independent spec writers like yourself are doing what you can, but without Webkit, Chrome, IE, Mozilla, etc adopting and able to faithfully supporting those specs, they are meaningless. For example, an undependable video tag is worse than not having one at all... we'll go back to the day of selecting your video format of choice on every site. Thoughts on that? Ian,
Thanks for dropping by and commenting.

The HTML5 spec’s lack of coherency towards video codecs, ECMA’s recent debacle regarding typing of variables, etc, the slowness of of adoption of CSS3 also cast a big shadow on standards IMHO.

I think a major effort akin to Wasp, Dreamweaver task force etc is in order. Some recent conversations between IE’s PM (http://adrianba.net/) and various users shed some light on that… The big boys just don’t want to play ball.

I realize that the independent spec writers like yourself are doing what you can, but without Webkit, Chrome, IE, Mozilla, etc adopting and able to faithfully supporting those specs, they are meaningless.

For example, an undependable video tag is worse than not having one at all… we’ll go back to the day of selecting your video format of choice on every site.

Thoughts on that?

]]> By: Ian Hickson http://visualrinse.com/2009/07/07/a-baby-so-ugly-even-a-mother-couldnt-love-it-web-standards/comment-page-1/#comment-109500 Ian Hickson Thu, 09 Jul 2009 19:34:27 +0000 http://visualrinse.com/?p=680#comment-109500 We actually _are_ focusing and assisting the devs in the trenches, the browser and tool developers and the web designers in the cube farms at MS, Adobe, etc. (Well, not MS and Adobe specifically, they refuse to actually participate. But others, e.g. Google.) If there are features you think are missing, though, or there are other issues with the spec, please do let us know! You can e-mail me directly (ian@hixie.ch) or join one of the lists and take part in the discussions. See the top of the HTML5 spec for links to the various resources you can use to get us your input: http://whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/ We actually _are_ focusing and assisting the devs in the trenches, the browser and tool developers and the web designers in the cube farms at MS, Adobe, etc. (Well, not MS and Adobe specifically, they refuse to actually participate. But others, e.g. Google.)

If there are features you think are missing, though, or there are other issues with the spec, please do let us know! You can e-mail me directly (ian@hixie.ch) or join one of the lists and take part in the discussions. See the top of the HTML5 spec for links to the various resources you can use to get us your input:

http://whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/

]]> By: Chad http://visualrinse.com/2009/07/07/a-baby-so-ugly-even-a-mother-couldnt-love-it-web-standards/comment-page-1/#comment-109416 Chad Wed, 08 Jul 2009 12:17:45 +0000 http://visualrinse.com/?p=680#comment-109416 Darren, Thanks so much for reminding me. In the writing of this, I seem to have forgotten the mess about the codecs. That was one of the things that spurred me into writing this post in the first place... This article on ZDNet details Ian Hickson's views: http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9595_22-318208.html Here is the political infighting laden message you alluded to: http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2009-June/020620.html UGH. What a mess. Darren,
Thanks so much for reminding me. In the writing of this, I seem to have forgotten the mess about the codecs. That was one of the things that spurred me into writing this post in the first place… This article on ZDNet details Ian Hickson’s views: http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9595_22-318208.html

Here is the political infighting laden message you alluded to: http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2009-June/020620.html

UGH. What a mess.

]]> By: Joeflash’s Enigmacopaedia » HTML5: Yet Another (yawn) Flash Killer http://visualrinse.com/2009/07/07/a-baby-so-ugly-even-a-mother-couldnt-love-it-web-standards/comment-page-1/#comment-109401 Joeflash’s Enigmacopaedia » HTML5: Yet Another (yawn) Flash Killer Wed, 08 Jul 2009 06:22:27 +0000 http://visualrinse.com/?p=680#comment-109401 [...] I’m not the only one who [...] [...] I’m not the only one who [...]

]]> By: Darren http://visualrinse.com/2009/07/07/a-baby-so-ugly-even-a-mother-couldnt-love-it-web-standards/comment-page-1/#comment-109399 Darren Wed, 08 Jul 2009 04:40:52 +0000 http://visualrinse.com/?p=680#comment-109399 Not to mention the issues of codecs in the HTML5 video tag. Google and Apple are backing H.264 while Mozilla can't afford to (and don't want to) pay the licensing fees for a closed, patented codec and are backing Theora. Sure, it's trivial in HTML5 to offer video encoded in both codecs but what content provider will want to encode all their content twice when Flash is already everywhere and plays H.264? Also, I think it's worth remembering that standards don't come from some pure reality untouched by mortal greed and corruption but are really the result of a political process where inclusion is based on which company pushes their non-standard technology the hardest. I'm not a fan of MS by any means but would XMLHttpRequest have come about if they were primarily focussing on following standards? My life has been so much easier since I became a full-time Flex dev and left wrangling with browser inconsistencies behind. Not to mention the issues of codecs in the HTML5 video tag. Google and Apple are backing H.264 while Mozilla can’t afford to (and don’t want to) pay the licensing fees for a closed, patented codec and are backing Theora. Sure, it’s trivial in HTML5 to offer video encoded in both codecs but what content provider will want to encode all their content twice when Flash is already everywhere and plays H.264?

Also, I think it’s worth remembering that standards don’t come from some pure reality untouched by mortal greed and corruption but are really the result of a political process where inclusion is based on which company pushes their non-standard technology the hardest. I’m not a fan of MS by any means but would XMLHttpRequest have come about if they were primarily focussing on following standards?

My life has been so much easier since I became a full-time Flex dev and left wrangling with browser inconsistencies behind.

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